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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Rich |
| Date: | Friday, 21st Nov 2008 13:07 |
| Views: | 79 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Well, when your client gets 100's of useless irrelevant applications to the job, am sure they will return to yourself, to save sifting through all these applications.
Some of our clients have gone direct to the job boards, but you have to change job boards and then produce them with quality candidates, how can they refuse?? |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Dean |
| Date: | Friday, 21st Nov 2008 16:22 |
| Views: | 48 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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This is common place. Of course job boards will let clients advertise directly on their sites. Why should they restrict thier revenue streams to recruiters only?
The benefit of using a good recruitment agency is that they can deliver good candidates. Agencies shouldn't be reliant solely on advertising to get candidates. There are other methods to attract better candidates than advertising that your clients will be unable to do no matter what. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Thursday, 4th Dec 2008 13:46 |
| Views: | 66 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Hi Peter,
If you felt like getting some sort of retribution, you could report the jobboard to the EAS (Employment Agency Standards) team at BERR for not adhering to the EAA conduct regulations (not checking IDs of candidates submited etc. etc.)
Job-boards are covered by the legislation too, as they are engaged in "the business of providing services (whether by the provision of information or otherwise) for the purpose of finding workers employment with employers or of supplying employers with workers for employment by them."
i.e. there is no caveat that says anything like "...and job-boards are not included".
I've checked with EAS and their view is that job-boards are expected to comply with the EAA Conduct Regulations.
No-one has obviously bothered complaining though, so thats why no investigations have ever been launched, or
Why not buck the trend and put in a written complaint?
Go ahead, make a name for yourself :-)
contact me privately and I can help you draft a letter - have made many effective complaints against non-compliant agencies so I know what to say and how to get it followed up with. They are not a bad bunch the EAS, and we should be using them to clean up the industry.
Personally, I feel the job-boards have too much power, and are looking to get a slice of the agency action by getting to our clients directly.
TR |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Job Boarder |
| Date: | Thursday, 4th Dec 2008 17:09 |
| Views: | 60 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Transform Recruitment - What kind of attitude is this to take just because your losing business to a competitive resource???
In my opinion, job boards are entitled to do business with any company that wishes to use their service, we work with both recruitment agencies and employers without any conflicts. We dont steal any business, we simply market our services via relevant routes to attract new business whether agency or employer.
And your suggestion that job boards should adhere to the same rules as recruitment agencies doesnt make sense either...does this mean that companies should not be allowed to advertise in newspapers or magazines because candidates backgrounds havent been checked ?
Recruitment agencies need to accept that many employers find that job boards are a successful medium for attracting candidates in a cost effective manner, regardless of whether you like it or not. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Thursday, 4th Dec 2008 22:30 |
| Views: | 66 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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>> Transform Recruitment - What kind of attitude is this to take just because your losing business to a competitive resource???
Jobboards are competitive only because they have enjoyed a honeymoon period while the rest of the recruitment industry haven't woken up to the fact that the jobboards are also subject to the same legislation as everyone else
>> In my opinion, job boards are entitled to do business with any company that wishes to use their service, we work with both recruitment agencies and employers without any conflicts. We dont steal any business, we simply market our services via relevant routes to attract new business whether agency or employer.
your opinion is very interesting, but what matters here is the LAW of THE LAND.
As it happens I agree with much of what you say, most of the time.
>> And your suggestion that job boards should adhere to the same rules as recruitment agencies doesnt make sense either...
Its not MY suggestion, its on the statute books - look up the relevant legislation - EAA Conduct Regulations on BERR's website
>> does this mean that companies should not be allowed to advertise in newspapers or magazines because candidates backgrounds havent been checked ?
Publications like magazines and newspapers that are not wholly about advertising jobs have an exemption. Read the legislation.
>> Recruitment agencies need to accept that many employers find that job boards are a successful medium for attracting candidates in a cost effective manner, regardless of whether you like it or not.
We do, I'm just pointing out that jobboards have lived a charmed life, and now that the rest of the industry is waking up to the reality of the situation, they need to watch their step. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | onlooker |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 10:07 |
| Views: | 67 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Hi,
Isnt it more of a fact that recruiters need to "up their game" to ensure that direct employers get such value from outsourcing their recruitment requirements to the recruitment agency that the employer doesnt want to start bringing it all in-house?
All to often, recruiters fail to deliver a quality candidate vetting and recommendation service to clients and become just simple CV shifters - something anybody can do and any idiot is doing!.
IMO you cant replace "A good top draw recruiter" that delivers a top notch and quality service - they are worth their weight in gold HOWEVER you sure as heck can replace the 97% of recruiters that dont do a half decent job, dont understand what a recruitment service, dont want to invest in anything other than themselves rather than their business and moreover dont understand or get close enough to the employer to understand the remit.
The issue is not with "alternative methods of advertising" being available and being actively marketed its with employers getting such a dire service and poor value for money from a number of agencies that they think "stuff it, lets do it ourselves".
The employer is starting to percieve that recruitment agencies are all to often an expensive waste of time - only you can can change that. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | onlooker |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 10:32 |
| Views: | 72 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Transform recruitment
Just read your last post, just published. You are missing the point..
The job board is simply a classified advertising facility, it is not head hunting nor is it providing any recommendation service or vetting facility. It is not offering a recruitment service of any kind.
It is simply advertising many jobs on the internet in an effective way of which any job seeker from anywhere can apply for.
If an advertised job attracts 100 applications for a direct employer so biet, the employer needs to then establish which candidates are good from those not suitable, discover more about some of the applicants than the Cv tells them, short list those applications and then establish which ones should go through to the interview stage - In other words a "Recruitment Service"
As i said in my last post the issue is that "Recruiters are all to often not doing what they are expected to do"
~oh and finally, many job boards offers news information, articles and other information pages they are not all just filled with job adverts and if legislation got any worse many could simply just move their servers outside of the UK!.
Your attention should be more focused on further regulation of the recruitment agency market - frankly its a joke that anyone anywhere can decide to be a recruiter overnight without any previous experience of recruitment and that why standards are at rock bottom in the industry and why employers are now starting to turn against some of you.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Don McIntosh |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 10:40 |
| Views: | 69 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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The leading Job boards have always been very aware of the implications of the EAA 2003 Regulations. During it's drafting stages considerable information was provided to the authors to help them understand the different organisations who make up the very successful UK recruitment industry and the roles they play - but it evidently did not suit the political agenda at the time.
After the Regulations came into force there were a number of meetings with the then DTi and different organisations lobbied to get changes. At the same time a number of the larger online players, individually or collectively, sought very expensive legal advice to prepare for a test case.
Nothing of course has happened because no one really wants to rock the boat. Officially BERR will always point to the Regulations but no action has been taken because it will provoke a big argument. This is especially true now with the more difficult economy. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Job Boarder |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 10:52 |
| Views: | 69 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Transform Recruitment
The points you make about legislation are interesting and certainly could cause problems for jobs boards if enforced.
But surely that still doesnt warrant you suggesting that legislation should be used as a means of "retribution" simply because a jobs board has done its job well? Regardless of the legislative issues, recruitment agencies need to accept that jobs boards have established their place in the market and can offer employers an alternative to traditional methods. The question that needs to be answered, is why would an employer use a jobs board if the agency is doing its job well enough?
In terms of the legislation, The FSA, HMRC and many other government agencies dont seem to be too concerned with regards to jobs boards not checking candidates back grounds because they are some of the leading employers using jobs boards directly. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 11:07 |
| Views: | 62 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Going off topic slightly ...it always makes me laugh when I see contingency recruiters refer to companies they occasionally place people with as "clients".
If these companies were really "clients" they would pay these recruiters to advertise for them. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Greig |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 14:53 |
| Views: | 70 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Transform - you've missed the point
If a client goes direct to a job board then it's because they perceive they're going to get better/accurate/cheaper candidates. If you as their ex-agency complain about the job board then the board possibly would get investigated. They might get told to change things about the way they do business.
The result is they change their business and have to do more as part of their service. The client ends up getting more of an agency experience but at job board rates.
If you can't explain to your clients where you're adding value into their recruitment process then you're out of the game. No amount of reporting your competitors is going to get your business back.
Greig
talentRevolt - UK split fee recruitment exchange - http://www.talentrevolt.com |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 17:17 |
| Views: | 62 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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taking them in turn:
>> ONLOOKER
>> The job board is simply a classified advertising facility, it is not head hunting nor is it providing any recommendation service or vetting facility. It is not offering a recruitment service of any kind.
At the risk of repeating myself...
Yes, that's how it looks to you and I, but the LEGAL DEFINITION (which is what counts) of "recruitment agency" is wide enough to include jobboards. In fact they EXPLICITLY say that jobboards are included. Go and find the legislation on BERR's website, then you'll see. Heck, I even think I paraphrased or quoted from it above.
>> ~oh and finally, many job boards offers news information, >> articles and other information pages they are not all just >> filled with job adverts
true, but the exemption is only for PRINTED media that has other non-job content
>>> and if legislation got any worse many could simply just move their servers outside of the UK!.
of course, though they'd probably have to move their whole operation outside UK, at least the ltd. company registration anyhows
>> Your attention should be more focused on further regulation >> of the recruitment agency market -
My attention is indeed focused on better regulation, this is just a side conversation, but interesting as it raises awareness of the EAA Conduct Regulations and the complaints procedure
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 17:30 |
| Views: | 55 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Job Boarder
>> The question that needs to be answered, is why would an employer use a jobs board if the agency is doing its job well enough?
cost
- agencies who do the checks required by the EAA Conduct Regulations, not to mention the interviewing, matching etc. have a massive burden/overhead over and above the jobboards.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 17:39 |
| Views: | 65 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Greig
>> The result is they change their business and have to do >> more as part of their service. The client ends up getting more >> of an agency experience but at job board rates.
Believe me, if jobboards started to comply with the regulations, there's no way they'd be able to offer a service at traditional job board rates !
Human interaction per application will jump from currently ZERO seconds to possibly one hour (two or three hours to get ID, perform checks first time, average reduced when jobseeker applies multiple times).
Estimate the same time for each new job taken.
Now let me be the first to say that I don't necesarily agree with much of the EAA Conduct Regulations. But the fact remains, its the law.
I don't know why the government targeted jobboards also - maybe there were too many instances of employers caught employing illegal immigrants playing dumb and blaming the jobboards "I assumed they would have checked!" |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | onlooker |
| Date: | Friday, 5th Dec 2008 18:37 |
| Views: | 66 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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>>>agencies have a massive burden/overhead above job boards
What tosh. marketing costs to attract candidates to view jobs on job boards is an absolute killer for job boards - example Jobsite just spent £15 million on marketing in order to increase traction.
In effect a GOOD recruiter can save an employer money. You dont hear clients of say Michael page complaining about fees do you.. thats because they are at the top of their game and deliver what the client needs.
Meanwhile many recruiters just simply fail to deliver a service and i repeat again employers think "stuff it - we will take HR inhouse"
A recruiter SHOULD be able to save a client money over taking HR inhouse, a recruiter SHOULD be able to deliver a better service with a higher level of experience than a client doing it inhouse - however the sad fact is that many dont because they dont deliver the service the client expects and at 15-20% or whatever of salary to place a candidate its percieved as expensive esp where the recuiter hasnt explained the process properly or indeed explained to the client the service they are providing.
Perception is half the battle the other half is delivering a quality service that the clients want to come back for more of later.
Start improving the standards that recruiters work to, kick out the dross that drags the industry down and leave job boards to do what they are good at - "digital advertising"
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Monday, 8th Dec 2008 09:09 |
| Views: | 71 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Wow, there are some strong feelings regarding this topic.
I am concerned with where this is going. Job boards make most of their money via agencies (Visit any job board and you will see that the vast majority of adverts are for agencies) with growing fees for advertising and database searching services. A growing number of clients are now directly employing ex-recruiters as 'Resourcing Managers' to take up in house recruitment activities, in addition to having a PSL of carefully selected agencies. Having worked within the HR department of an international engineering business, I have witnessed the client checking the job boards for named individuals after receiving the individuals CV from an agency. In effect, the agency are finding the candidate but the client are approaching said person directly once they are on possession of enough details to run a job board search. This isn't good for recruitment businesses and regardless of how good the job boards are or how much they spend on advertising, they are being used by end user clients to reduce their recruitment spend. In the old days (okay, only 7 or 8 years ago) job boards had pricing policies which meant that clients had higher fees to pay for database searching which is where the job boards are actually most effective in my experience.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Monday, 8th Dec 2008 17:06 |
| Views: | 61 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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onlooker:
>> "What tosh. marketing costs to attract candidates to view jobs on job boards is an absolute killer for job boards - example Jobsite just spent £15 million on marketing in order to increase traction."
Ok, I'm not saying that running a job-board is necessarily a no-overhead business, but COME ON !
you're not trying to say that the cost of adding a human interaction to each and every application is going to be negligible ?
If that were the case, in such crowded job-board market surely some of the job-boards would have already be doing this, in an effort to add value for "negligible" cost.
Transform |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Monday, 8th Dec 2008 17:38 |
| Views: | 59 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Mitch - I guess because that's all I know really. Perhaps if I'd worked for an agency that did non-contingency recruitment it would be second nature.
However, I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing it having learnt from someone more experienced on how to sell the concept to clients.
The only thing clients of mine have paid me upfront for is either advertising or campaigns involving contacting qualified accountants through CIMA, ACCA and ICAEW.
I did do a small amount of non contingency work at my first place of employment, but it was a hard sell and not something that was encouraged by my employer. The clients that I did mention it to weren't interested and I suspect it was lack of skill on my part in selling that method of recruitment. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | anon |
| Date: | Tuesday, 9th Dec 2008 16:28 |
| Views: | 61 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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"""""Ok, I'm not saying that running a job-board is necessarily a no-overhead business, but COME ON !
you're not trying to say that the cost of adding a human interaction to each and every application is going to be negligible ?
If that were the case, in such crowded job-board market surely some of the job-boards would have already be doing this, in an effort to add value for "negligible" cost.
Transform """"
Be careful...very careful....
If the job boards got their act together they could do serious damage to recruiters. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Wednesday, 10th Dec 2008 12:21 |
| Views: | 78 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Re "Are you guys trying to say that recruitment agencies have bigger overheads than job boards?"
This depends on the job board. Some will cost very little to run, others such as Jobsite / Monster etc will have massive overheads. Job boards however get paid for all of their work and time as they don't actually have to make placements, they are simply a database of candidates and a vacancy advertising service. We recruiters can put a lot of time and effort into filling jobs and get nothing back should someone else's candidate get the job or the client cancel, so overall it's impossible to give a definitive answer to your question.
Having worked for two £200m turnover agencies in a management capacity, I can tell you that big agencies carry huge overheads.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | down south recruiter |
| Date: | Wednesday, 10th Dec 2008 13:43 |
| Views: | 60 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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your having a laugh. Job Boards will die unless the can get jobseeker traffic. i have worked for 4 different job boards no and own 2. i regularly spend £50,000 per month on generating traffic.
This is why most board don't do a fee trial because it's not economic. a vast %age of my earnings goes back into traffic generation. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Wednesday, 10th Dec 2008 14:05 |
| Views: | 60 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Yes, that seems quite high, but we spend over £1m per week pay rolling our contractors alone, before we pay for staff, systems, power, insurances etc, which I'm sure you will agree is a touch higher cost than £50k per week.
And no, I'm not having a laugh. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Wednesday, 10th Dec 2008 14:10 |
| Views: | 59 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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Sorry, I quoted your cost as £50k per week when you only spend £50k per month. The figure I presented for us of £1m per week is correct. I take your point, but not all job boards spend as much on generating traffic as your sites, hence there are some pretty poor job boards out there. Please drop me an email with links to your job boards as if your spending £50k per month generating traffic, I'd like to see if we can use your sites for our business. We're not looking for any freebies and are quite happy to pay for decent quality and service |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Job Advertisers Dealing Directly with My clien |
| Author: | Transform Recruitment |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Feb 2009 13:18 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=156819 |
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@ havin a larff
>> Let's be honest. Your so called bank roll is not a £1m cost to the business.
Just noticed this old posting and couldn't let it pass without comment. Surely Ruffski is putting his £1m bankrolling contractors down in his books as "cost of sales" (if not "fixed costs") - in what way is this not a cost to the business ?
Ok, you advertising spend might go down as "fixed cost",
but an accountant / management consultant could also make a case for "cost of sales" as presumably there is some sort of formula for predicting no. of apps delivered per pound spent (across the various channels / media).
Either way, notice the word "cost" is common to both ledgers !!? |
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