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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Friday, 17th Apr 2009 15:09 |
| Views: | 23 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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With respect to R2Rs, and "explaining rationally why a decent recruitment firm would need someone like you. "
Heaven forefend Mitch!
You are not asking R2R to advertise their services here are you?
Still, it's been a short week and it is Friday. Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Friday, 17th Apr 2009 15:28 |
| Views: | 29 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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My experience of rec2recs is dire. I have had several calls where they know very little about me, using the same old lines. They haven't offered anything that would entice me to go elsewhere.
My old MD had several calls to try to 'headhunt' her into Consultant roles! Why she would close her business and go and work in a role paying a quarter of that is beyond me.
I wouldn't use one to find a job because I figure that I'd be pretty crap if I can't find my own job when that's what I do for a living.
I know there's the argument that they can negotiate a salary for me etc, but a good consultant should surely be able to do that.
I'm also not sure how they can add value and wouldn't use one to recruit into my business because of that. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Friday, 17th Apr 2009 15:35 |
| Views: | 31 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Hello 'Simon'
Yes I would. Not to justify themselves to me necessarily ...but to demonstrate how good they are by stating what value they bring and backing it up. Be a good PR exercise for them if they were truly any good. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Friday, 17th Apr 2009 16:10 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Brilliant....I've been waiting for this debate for such a long time. Praise be to Mitch for asking the question in his own inimitable style, it really has brightened up a busy, but otherwise dull Friday afternoon. Mitch for Prime Minister anyone?
I must say that Mitch is actually asking a very valid question and I hope that someone working for a Rec2Rec firm responds.
I'm asked regularly to explain why our company's services are needed and what makes our services so special and I've never failed to give an answer. Come on Rec2Rec's, show us your passion for your business and tell us why we should be using you. We may even give you some business if you do.
Cheers Mitch!
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Friday, 17th Apr 2009 16:41 |
| Views: | 31 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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@ Mitch - I think it might well be. I feel closer to you already ;) I'll be hunting you down on Linkedin next!
t - not sure on fees, but would have thought that they'd be comparable with generalists at a guess.
Craig - it is a dull Friday isn't it? I always find a break from work to walk the dog helps. Or a stiff drink. Or both.
We did have a rec2rec on here ages ago that brightened things up a bit. She pretended to be someone she wasn't - posting under a variety of names. Bit like the Monster thread a while back. When a few of us guessed this she became rather unpleasant, but denied it until the bitter end.
Sadly for her the company in which she worked was identified - not great PR really. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Dee |
| Date: | Sunday, 19th Apr 2009 04:59 |
| Views: | 22 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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I have to say, i used to find the whole concept of Rec 2 Rec pretty bizarre. My main school of thought, used to be pretty much what Mitch/Liz have said, surely a Recruiter worth their salt, knows how to source opportunities?
Also, surely they are motivated enough to conduct the search, as it is for themselves! (or have we become so money hungry, that we can't be bothered to find our own jobs, because we don't get commission? )
Anyhow, over the years, my attitude has softened. I think that Rec 2 Rec's do have a role to play within certain sectors. I particularly think they can be useful when recruiting for global positions. I suppose the single most valid reason for using a Rec 2 Rec firm to find a job, is to save a Consultant time, which either indicates we are too busy, or too lazy, or a combination of both.
I would also be interested to hear a Rec to Rec's thoughts on this topic. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Not an R2R |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 01:27 |
| Views: | 22 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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I would have thought that Agencies would use an R2R company for the same reasons that any company uses a recruitment service. R2R companies spend all their time focusing on the one market which "should" give them the advantage of being able to offer a better quality of applicant. At the end of the day anybody who is in a position to hire new people should look at internal people, direct applicants, advertising and recruitment agency. Then hire the best applicant |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 08:31 |
| Views: | 35 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Whilst sitting in the sunshine in my local beer garden over the weekend, I found myself pondering this issue and realised that one answer as to why many recruitment companies use Rec2Rec's could be tied to the fact that senior guys in many recruitment firms are in the main pretty hands off regarding recruitment and as commission is rarely payable for saving the employer company money, there is little or no incentive for the hands on recruiters within the company to source recruiters to join the company. Perhaps recruitment companies need to review this as by finding a good consultant to join the firm, consultants would be saving the company around £6k in fees, which would be quite a good cost saving for any firm and commission could surely be paid to reflect this.
Thankfully my wife got the beers in just in time for me to cease pondering all issues recruitment for the remainder of my Sunday afternoon!
Have a great week all.
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Alexandra Brown |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 10:17 |
| Views: | 21 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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I hope I don’t regret doing this, as last time I posted a thread on here I got a barrage of abuse for being a rec 2 rec consultant when trying to answer a similar question. However since none of my fellow sector workers seem to either know why anyone should use a rec2rec, are too cowardly or simply don’t care then I have decided to speak up!
Frankly, I don’t know why a lot of agencies use some rec2res, it frustrates me that they will pay a fee for no added value whatsoever.. you all know the kind of practices I am talking about, hence why this thread exists. I don’t want to be seen to advertise or promote my business in any way since I am posting on here openly, so all I will say is this; my clients and candidates work in partnership with me because I am a specialist in an area they are not. The same philosophy applies to why anyone would use an agency for any sector.
I will happily discuss this with anyone who genuinely wants to have a conversation about the more specific questions which have been left unanswered in terms of value, fees etc., please feel free to contact me directly.
Best,
Alexandra Brown.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 10:24 |
| Views: | 24 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Hi Alexandra,
Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to this topic, it's good to see someone from the Rec2Rec sector speaking up for themselves and their sector. Good for you.
Thanks
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Mev |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 11:24 |
| Views: | 31 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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I appreciate most people have had bad examples with R2R agencies and I must say some of the ones I have come across have been shocking. Mostly because they don’t do their homework, think about their approach or on occasion don’t display any professionalism at all! That said, I have used them before when I used to manage in a large corporate agency and I have seen the benefit. They can provide a continous flow of candidates in that current market place. I used to interview all the time without any live roles being open in case I came across a potential star. In fact I did on 2 occasions! I would prob never come across those, if I was headhunting direct. I have also used the better ones on a retained basis for 2 P&C roles and for senior hires where I needed to consolidate certain backgrounds into a shortlist.
They can save lot of time for managers to be fair which in turn is of course money and as it has been said they should know their market, who is billing well and where, what company is struggling etc etc this in turn is good commercial knowledge coming back to you. Agreed, there is a shortage of quality out there but the good ones have on occasion come up trumps when my focus is best placed on the job at hand. Just my 2p worth but this part of the industry needs to validate their selves better ( it has an awful reputation at the moment) and prove to the recruiters a lot more that they have a valuable role to play and the better R2R companies need to take the reigns and lead this.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Alexandra Brown |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 11:36 |
| Views: | 28 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Thanks Ruffski.
Hi Mitch,
I am a specialist in the recruitment sector in London. I have an extensive network of clients and candidates across different recruitment sectors. My clients are obviously specialists on whatever sector or sectors they focus on. Of course, many of them know their competitors and can therefore naturally source their consultants directly from them if they so wish, but their primary concern is to concentrate on developing and building their business and adding value to their own clients. Clients and candidates have preconceived ideas about competitors and in addition often, particularly for more senior roles, the situations can be delicate especially if they know their competitors well, therefore I can act as a mediator. There are so many other areas that a specialist in this market can add value, crossing sectors for example and attracting the best talent from a sector that is new to a Client. Rec2Rec is not something you can do overnight, well at least not properly, it takes time, trust, respect and professionalism to build a network of strong candidates and professional clients that you can regularly interact, communicate with and advise, that’s were the value is added. Not just pulling CV’s of job boards and sending them out.
I hope that answers your question.
Best,
Alex.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 12:49 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Alex, no it doesn't really.
All you've said is what practically every other Rec2Rec consultant says. "Adding value", acting as mediator", blah, blah, etc..
Having said that, if you are also saying that you have been in recruitment a long time and have nurtured lots of very reliable contacts in the industry then I guess that is something. Basically all I have ever seen Rec2Rec people do is put round pegs into round holes and are useless at actually recognising genuine recruitment talent beyond whatever fantastic last quarter a consultant may claim to have had.
How many years have you been in recruitment in total? |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Alexandra Brown |
| Date: | Monday, 20th Apr 2009 13:24 |
| Views: | 31 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Mitch,
I have almost 10 years overall recruitment experience, the last 6 in London and the last 4 of that in Rec2Rec specifically.
I answered your post as I wanted to respond as a representative from the Rec2Rec sector. You started a similar thread on here a couple of years ago. We seemed to have an understanding then and you were content with my answers, but that particular thread led to a number of personal attacks on me from people that had no idea who I was, had any personal dealings with me or know what my values are.. For that reason I am reluctant to enter into a detailed debate on here to try and justify what I personally do and that how I specifically work is not only rewarding and worthwhile to me but has made a great difference to the clients and candidates I have worked with over the years.
I totally understand and appreciate your questions and I have answered them in the best way I can without using this forum to promote me or my business directly or to encourage what happened previously. If my answers are too generic for you and you genuinely want more information then I am more than happy to discuss, please contact me directly.
Best,
Alex.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 10:19 |
| Views: | 24 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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@ Hal,
I strongly disagree with your comments regarding Mitch's attitude and him having a big problem with recruitment. Having worked within internal and retained capacities for such a prolonged period of time, Mitch has witnessed a great deal of poor service and behaviors by numerous agencies and a complete lack of innovation which many consultants and businesses actually offer despite their sales pitches being based around this very point. Mitch simply states this without hesitation and occasionally in a very honest, direct and succinct manner, which although not to everyone's taste is actually fairly refreshing as he tends to cut straight to the point and dare I say "Tells it like it is" If you don't like this then fair enough, but I personally disagree with you.
Cheers
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Boris Maniyevski |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 10:49 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Ruffski, this isnt quite the place to be arguing over another poster however, i agree with hal. mitch is a very well known poster on various professional recuitment and networking sites and has been kicked off more times than i can hope to remember from a lot of them.
he obviously has a big character problem and i for one cannot se how he can possibly convert the energy he expends on such sites in being any good in his chosen career
cheers
boris m.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 11:01 |
| Views: | 20 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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Boris,
"Ruffski, this isnt quite the place to be arguing over another poster however, i agree with hal"
That's a tough hypocritical isn't it Boris? I wasn't arguing, simply stating my opinion, which I'm perfectly entitled to do. You've criticized me and done exactly the same thing as me in the very same sentence.
You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, I just think that perhaps if you understood what Mitch was actually saying, you might be less inclined to do so. You are clearly judging Mitch by the ferocity of some of his previous posts rather than understanding his frustrations, which I personally feel are pretty spot on.
Cheers,
Ruffski
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Eric VanLustbader |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 11:24 |
| Views: | 22 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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hmmmm Mitch....
Why, when you normally make quite uselful insightful comments, have you posted this really dumb post?
the answer, Mitch oh Mitch, is why does any business on the planet use a recruitment consultant.......to save time, to save money. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Adelheid Beinfeld |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 11:31 |
| Views: | 23 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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I have to agree that this is a dumb post.We are here to talk about recruitment not feed the authors misguided comments which makes me wonder if Mitch knows anything about the subject. Its a shame this forum has to have such a wellknown nuisance, like the author, here in the first place. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | K |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 12:46 |
| Views: | 20 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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It amazes me that when ever Mitch says anything, which some may seem as controvertial, a bandwagon appears.
He may be inciting debate, putting forward his opinion or adding his experience - but everyone can learn something from somebody else. You may not necessarily like to hear it or may not agree with it, but this is the internet and an open forum.
To question his reputation, claim he has a character problem and to call his question 'dumb' when other questions by other authors on these forums are not 'challenged' makes it look like a witch hunt.
K
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 12:56 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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@ K,
Thank heavens people like you who also understand that it's not necessarily the manner in which the point is made, but the point itself which is the important thing, are also reading this forum thread.
Thanks for bringing some commonsense to this discussion.
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 13:41 |
| Views: | 26 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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What's really funny is the people that come here to try to character assassinate me whilst not having the balls to do it under their real name. That makes me question who has the most to hide.
BTW ...I loved the poster who said that people use recruitment agencies to "save time and money". They sound like they've just literally walked out of an agency induction course. There's some mindblowing insight right there!!
Let me position my original question another way.
There is so much more to recruitment than just banging out ads onto job boards ...but all I ever see are Rec2Recs advertising 90% of the recruitment jobs that are out there.
Why can't the recruitment firms with the vacancies do that? In fact if it is a big enough agency, they should be running ads regularly anyway.
And ...if a recruitment firm is any good and truly understands the very profession it charges other people good money for, why can't they initiate their own other sourcing channels? Channels that are cheaper and will produce better quality employees. Channels like employee referrals, competitor research and direct sourcing, identifying people in their client markets who could become recruiters (who already have the technical knowledge). None of this is expensive and not time-consuming either.
They are supposed to be professional recruiters ffs.
It's like a shoe-repairer getting someone else to mend his shoes and citing the fact that 'he's busy' as to why.
Cue more anonymous abuse...
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Here is something I don't understand |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Tuesday, 21st Apr 2009 15:42 |
| Views: | 21 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=182235 |
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How about we continue the discussion without getting off track. It was all going swimmingly before the Hal post.
Rec2recs have a much more convincing argument when they post a coherent and pertinent reply to the original post, like Alexandra did.
Yes we are here to talk about recruitment, which is what we're doing. If anyone wants to discuss rec2recs and start a thread about we don't need the internet police coming along and condemning it. Most people are big enough to have a discussion and ignore what you don't want to read - it's that simple. |
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